No Meth required 403WHP/527WTQ

[sholxgt]

AJP, your dyno graph reminds me of a friends Eclipse from back in the 90's.  It had an Apexi boost controller (sliders for boost by rpm).  In that car, he could get away with a lot of boost down low, but then had to taper off significantly due to the fuel system and turbo efficiency.

Have you figured out any way to play with the torque management?  I'm wondering if you are getting significant power cuts in low gears? 

 

[ZSHO]

Congrat"s on the newly found" fountain of youth "and may it live long and Prosper my friend.  Z    :thumb:

 

[Scott4957]

So what is the approach other tuners are taking?...im actually curious on how you percieve their approach on tunes to be?

I am wondering the same thing. From what I understand, commanded boost can't be adjusted by gear or RPM, I see that boost is quite a bit lower in 1'st and 2nd gear on my tune. I also notice that the WGDC seems to follow this. So is the WGDC what is limiting boost in these lower gears, and is that something that you can adjust as the tuner or is the car/tune limiting torque or load in those gears? Again, i would be curious to see a street log to compare to mine, the dyno log is just a little snip of my 0-110mph logs. One thing is for sure, you have to be doing damn near as well on that tune as I am on meth and you are running less boost. Spark seems about the same, again just looking at that small section that matches up with my logs. Well done, it appears you figured something out. 

I get your take on meth. My thought would be a small nozzle just to give you some extra fuel on those cold days and to give you the extra cooling on the hot days. Maybe its a tune you only run when you are out at the strip or tearing up the streets on the weekends. It does appear that the dip in your torque and a bit in the horsepower is associated with the dip in fuel pressure. Nothing that seems significant but it was interesting seeing how that lined up in the log and the dyno graph! Thanks again for sharing this stuff, your posts combined with some books I have been reading have finally got me over the initial hump of getting a grasp on understanding this stuff. Still trying to get a good grasp on what parameters are changed on this particular motor to get the results you want, but I am picking that up piece by piece as well. If I'm ever out your way I owe you a beer!

 

[ajpturbo]

AJP, your dyno graph reminds me of a friends Eclipse from back in the 90's.  It had an Apexi boost controller (sliders for boost by rpm).  In that car, he could get away with a lot of boost down low, but then had to taper off significantly due to the fuel system and turbo efficiency.

Have you figured out any way to play with the torque management?  I'm wondering if you are getting significant power cuts in low gears?

No torque management in low gears...there is a level of tq management for every shift up and down ...i use tq management for the sake of drivetrain preservation ...not all datalogs ive seen have kept that in tact

The level or torque i command is based on pedal position and not gear based...i havent seen any way that the ecu alters boost by gear...and i dont see it being nessasary with awd....i stomp the pedal and let it eat

 

[sholxgt]

AJP, your dyno graph reminds me of a friends Eclipse from back in the 90's.  It had an Apexi boost controller (sliders for boost by rpm).  In that car, he could get away with a lot of boost down low, but then had to taper off significantly due to the fuel system and turbo efficiency.

Have you figured out any way to play with the torque management?  I'm wondering if you are getting significant power cuts in low gears?

No torque management in low gears...there is a level of tq management for every shift up and down ...i use tq management for the sake of drivetrain preservation ...not all datalogs ive seen have kept that in tact

The level or torque i command is based on pedal position and not gear based...i havent seen any way that the ecu alters boost by gear...and i dont see it being nessasary with awd....i stomp the pedal and let it eat

Interesting.  I assumed (and I know what that does, lol) that there was a form of torque management that is gear dependent built in from the factory.  Using Torque to monitor my car stock, it looks like I have less boost in first gear.  Maybe it's just due to less load/time under load?

I had a GM car and no tuner was able to eliminate the torque management in that particular application.  Probably for the best since it spun bad regardless.

 

[ElvenSho]

How about you send that tune over to me so i can test it against my unleashed tune this weekend at the track? is that even possible?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Scott4957]

Interesting.  I assumed (and I know what that does, lol) that there was a form of torque management that is gear dependent built in from the factory.  Using Torque to monitor my car stock, it looks like I have less boost in first gear.  Maybe it's just due to less load/time under load?

I was wondering the same thing. Obviously I have the throttle 100% open on this. Green is RPM's, Orange is boost and Red is WGDC. All my logs have that dip in boost at the end of 1st gear, and it seems to coincide with the wastegate opening. Question is why? Traction control is off but I think the non PP cars or maybe just the MKS has some additional nanny systems that can't be turned off like the PP cars. AJ, do you get this same dip in boost?

 

[ajpturbo]

Ill try and write more later but its not tq management giving you the low boost in low gears...you just need better boost control...look at my log for my 17psi pull...watch my boost at redline and see how much more wastegate duty it takes to maintain that boost

 

[Scott4957]

Ill try and write more later but its not tq management giving you the low boost in low gears...you just need better boost control...look at my log for my 17psi pull...watch my boost at redline and see how much more wastegate duty it takes to maintain that boost

Thanks, I appreciate the input. I do see what you are saying about your log. I am at 90% now in 4th, but WDDC sags a bit in 3rd and I think it would keep the boost better to redline if it was higher. I just want to speak intelligently to the changes I want made if I ask Torrie to do something different. I will have to look over past revisions and see how or if WGDC has changed to tell if he has been working on that or not. He may be limiting boost in first and second to ensure a safe tune as well, i really don't know.

 

[ajpturbo]

You cant really limit boost by gear....or change wastegate duty cycle...the wastegates are doing what they need to , to achieve the boost..by nature its just hard to hit target boost in low gears...the speed of the rpm sweep and less load being applied makes it hard to hit target boost in 1st and 2nd

The tq reductions and management happens at the shifts for the most part...if any of you are getting low boost in low gears its due to the tuning...not tq reductions...look at your "desired tip" when you log...if you are not hitting des tip its not a matter of tq reductions..when tq management is being applied you will see a "tq source value" and desired tip will be reduced also

 

[Vortech347]

Very cool!

 

[ajpturbo]

J-will, so what approach do you think other tuners are taking to achieve power?

 

[sholxgt]

J-will, so what approach do you think other tuners are taking to achieve power?

I don't know all of the variable, but I suspect that both smoke and mirrors are included.  LOL

My very, very basic understanding of late model Fords is that the majority of tuning is just altering the demanded torque.  The ECU does most of the in between work.  Is that correct?

In some ways, I see the modern tuning as similar to a piggy back system since you can't, as far as I know, actually control the timing, fuel, boost, etc. to a great degree.

 

[ajpturbo]

J-will, so what approach do you think other tuners are taking to achieve power?

I don't know all of the variable, but I suspect that both smoke and mirrors are included.  LOL

My very, very basic understanding of late model Fords is that the majority of tuning is just altering the demanded torque.  The ECU does most of the in between work.  Is that correct?

In some ways, I see the modern tuning as similar to a piggy back system since you can't, as far as I know, actually control the timing, fuel, boost, etc. to a great degree.

Really it all comes down to airflow and cylinder pressure....i would say just the ecoboost use the demanded torque model....a mustang cant give anymore tq once the throttle is open ...an ecoboost with turbo can deliver variable tq due to turbo right...

Piggyback are the worst....not comparable here at all

We basically have full control with sct software....and can change values within the range of values allowed by the ecu

When you load a custom tune. You are writing a tune the same way ford does...you are just setting the values to what you want....we are basically playing ford calibrator

You absolutely CAN control boost spark or timing and fuel to whatever you want...its called tuning....with your torrie or lms tune, you arent going over top of the factory calibration or manipulating the tune you are re-writing the calibration

No smoke and mirrrors...you are changing the operation of the hardware

It would be really easy to run 30 psi and 40 degrees of spark and blow the head through the hood...we have that kind of control

 

[ajpturbo]

Jwill what makes you think you cant control those items such as spark fuel or boost?...where did you hear that

Im not sure if you can read log well but that's exactly what ive done...commanded the spark fuel and boost to precisely what i wanted

 

[sholxgt]

Thanks for the info!  My other current day knowledge is based off a friends Focus ST that operates similarly.

The demanded torque idea is new to me.  I didn't know that you could still also set the timing at x rpm/throttle position as well.  What happens if you set the timing, but the tune does not meet the demanded torque?

These do not sound like the easiest vehicles to tune.  Tuning used to be just spark and fuel (both alterable for when and how) and then the car made whatever power/torque it did with no overriding.

Please excuse any ignorance.  I am enjoying the tutorial.

 

[ajpturbo]

The tuning is rediculous...there are a few thousand items to change if you want

The timing you set is based on engine load not pedal or throttle position

If load is x then there is a table for spark based on load

 

[J-Will]

J-will, so what approach do you think other tuners are taking to achieve power?

Thats a good question.  We have reputable tuners, however they are for-profit, so there is a limit to what they share with the community.  From what I gather, adjustments can be broken down into these high level catagories:
increase in boost - how that is achieved seems to be indirect, using a method to call for more power which in turn increases boost demand
Fuel - We've heard from both the big tuners that fuel runs out quick on our platform, which is why meth is recommended.  This implies that they have some control over supplying it. 
Spark - Its recommended to change plugs to a colder heat range.  I assume tuners are advancing timing
Transmission - messing with shift firmness/ speed

Looking at the list, its a no-brainer.  Those are the basic components to a combustion engine.  Make more power by adjusting the spark, and supplying more air (increasing boost) and fuel.  I am by no means saying that is an easy thing to accomplish.  However, like I mentioned, the secret sauce remains secret. 

We get to ask you questions, because you did the work.  That arms us (me anyway) to ask better questions to a tuner.

 

[ajpturbo]

J will there really is no secret sauce...get boost up and add as much spark as your fuel and individual car will tolerate and the power is there

The method of adding boost seems indirect but its the system that ford and most drive by wire cars employ today...everything starts at the pedal...the driver demands more torque from the pedal then the car takes over and gives you what you think you want

You can set timing or spark to whatever you want...basically with forced induction tuning , you set spark just shy of whatever the fuel can tolerate

We have full control of fuel with sct

Its really not fair or accurate to say the 3.5 ecoboost runs out of fuel quickly....but the limitation is a hardware issue not a tuning issue

The fuel system we have is actually pretty strong and impressive..we are increasing hp/tq way over stock ...its unfair to say the fuel sytem is taxed because we cant add 200hp and 300ft lbs without needing an upgrade....what fuel system wouldnt?

The way i increased output on this tune is exactly how ford would...it can be done that way with sct but i dont know how other tuners are utilizing the software...there are ways to force a result that is less than ideal

Thats why its also retarded when people say that you can get a same result by either doing more spark and less boost or more boost and less spark.....you tune max spark at all boost for a properly tuned car

 

[Sinister-CO]

Thats why its also retarded when people say that you can get a same result by either doing more spark and less boost or more boost and less spark.....you tune max spark at all boost for a properly tuned car

You might be generalizing a bit here. Some platforms respond better to timing and others to boost. I suppose the ecoboost might fit this bill, but haven't we seen logs where some run more boost with less timing and others more timing with less boost? Sounds like you've found the sweet spot for your car. I doubt many other tuners would put in the time that you have.