Hesitation in boost and high rpm

[derfdog15]

Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.

I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.

What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.

I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.

Derfdog15... depends on what you want right? If you want a tune that is pushing the limits of your cars fuel system to get the maximum amount power, then obviously when there are major temperature changes, that tune will greatly affect how the car performs...

Say you tune it to the ragged edge of your fuel system in the summer, ambient temps are 90F... you take the same tune and you are going to have fuel issues in the winter when it hits 19F...

When Brad tuned my car, I had a winter and summer tune just for that reason. The winter tune had a bit less boost to compensate for the colder more dense air which is harder on the fuel system...

Same thing with Unleashed, when I had Torrie tune my car in the winter, the tune was much milder. Come summer, I asked for a retune and he was able to tune it more aggressively due to the warmer air.

LMS has several different tunes for the SHO as well... and A LOT of guys detune their SHO's using various stages for winter months just for that reason.

If you want an all year around tune that's fine, its just not going to be that most aggressive tune out there.  There are a lot of reasons for having multiple tunes for different climates...

In short, before calling out a tuner for a tune that might best perform in milder weather, perhaps there are reasons for that...

I get exactly what you are saying, and for sure will revise whatever tune in the summer for the track, BUT I feel that in this specific instance, where fuel may be the concern, and OP seems a bit annoyed about the issue in the cold, that it would make sense for them to make the tune more cold weather oriented. Just my .02

Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.

I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.

What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.

I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.

It all depends on what you are looking for in a tune. Like you say, the weather can vary quite a bit from day to day, especially in the upper midwest.
A large quantity of our customers run a lower octane tune in the winter to compensate for winter blends and driving conditions. Running a "summer tune" on 93 octane at WOT in 20 degree weather and 3 inches of snow seems like a very rare circumstance. We strive to work with the customer to fit all needs but very rarely will there be an instance where ONE tune fits EVERYONE'S needs. Unfortunately it sounds like we are unable to accommodate your tuning needs, we apologize about that. As for our customers on this thread we will continue to offer the utmost level of support available for all your tuning needs and we hope to solve this issue for you in a timely fashion.

understood, it just seems that the particular customer is wanting to be able to run his 93 tune in the cold, seems the utmost level of customer service would entail working on his tune so that he can run his 93 octane tune in the winter, and possibly offering him some form of 'winter' tune.

Again, I see the benefits completely of tunes for different conditions, heck, pro racers tweak there tunes every time they run at the track to compensate for differences in weather, etc. it just seems in the OPs case that he is annoyed he has to run a 91 octane tune on his tank of 93. LME knows where I stand, but I do hope you guys can get him sorted out. I have seem some pretty nice tunes come from you guys, so it seems a shame he is upset/inconvenienced is all. And more-so seems a bit rude to pass the buck of a tune issue he sees to the weather conditions.

P.S. maybe that new HPFP can sway me to a bit more favorable view of LME as well.

 

[ZSHO]

Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.

I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.

What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.

I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.

Derfdog15... depends on what you want right? If you want a tune that is pushing the limits of your cars fuel system to get the maximum amount power, then obviously when there are major temperature changes, that tune will greatly affect how the car performs...

Say you tune it to the ragged edge of your fuel system in the summer, ambient temps are 90F... you take the same tune and you are going to have fuel issues in the winter when it hits 19F...

When Brad tuned my car, I had a winter and summer tune just for that reason. The winter tune had a bit less boost to compensate for the colder more dense air which is harder on the fuel system...

Same thing with Unleashed, when I had Torrie tune my car in the winter, the tune was much milder. Come summer, I asked for a retune and he was able to tune it more aggressively due to the warmer air.

LMS has several different tunes for the SHO as well... and A LOT of guys detune their SHO's using various stages for winter months just for that reason.

If you want an all year around tune that's fine, its just not going to be that most aggressive tune out there.  There are a lot of reasons for having multiple tunes for different climates...

In short, before calling out a tuner for a tune that might best perform in milder weather, perhaps there are reasons for that...

I get exactly what you are saying, and for sure will revise whatever tune in the summer for the track, BUT I feel that in this specific instance, where fuel may be the concern, and OP seems a bit annoyed about the issue in the cold, that it would make sense for them to make the tune more cold weather oriented. Just my .02

Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.

I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.

What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.

I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.

It all depends on what you are looking for in a tune. Like you say, the weather can vary quite a bit from day to day, especially in the upper midwest.
A large quantity of our customers run a lower octane tune in the winter to compensate for winter blends and driving conditions. Running a "summer tune" on 93 octane at WOT in 20 degree weather and 3 inches of snow seems like a very rare circumstance. We strive to work with the customer to fit all needs but very rarely will there be an instance where ONE tune fits EVERYONE'S needs. Unfortunately it sounds like we are unable to accommodate your tuning needs, we apologize about that. As for our customers on this thread we will continue to offer the utmost level of support available for all your tuning needs and we hope to solve this issue for you in a timely fashion.

understood, it just seems that the particular customer is wanting to be able to run his 93 tune in the cold, seems the utmost level of customer service would entail working on his tune so that he can run his 93 octane tune in the winter, and possibly offering him some form of 'winter' tune.

Again, I see the benefits completely of tunes for different conditions, heck, pro racers tweak there tunes every time they run at the track to compensate for differences in weather, etc. it just seems in the OPs case that he is annoyed he has to run a 91 octane tune on his tank of 93. LME knows where I stand, but I do hope you guys can get him sorted out. I have seem some pretty nice tunes come from you guys, so it seems a shame he is upset/inconvenienced is all. And more-so seems a bit rude to pass the buck of a tune issue he sees to the weather conditions.

P.S. maybe that new HPFP can sway me to a bit more favorable view of LME as well.

I'm pretty confident LME will ultimately come thru with a probable fix for the OP and would contact Anthony at tuning@livernoismotorsports.com. Z

 

[polskifacet]

There are valid points in all these posts. I am/have been working with Anthony and Ethan and they are very on-top of the issue communication wise. I scheduled an appointment for the Ford dealer to change the fuel pump module (Recall) which may help. I would not mind a much more mild winter tune and something more aggressive for the summer. Having a set it and forget tune is not something I am expecting. Once the module is taken out of the equation, I'll work with LMS to hopefully achieve this. Computer should take care of making sure it doesn't blow up as stated earlier. We are going in the right direction.

My goal is to set a standard so we all have a simple concise answer with LMS tunes in my (or colder) region(s).

 

[polskifacet]

Today its a whopping 2f in Chicago. Did a couple wot pulls on the 87 tune (stock map on 3 bar) from LMS and its maxing out between 7 and 8 PSI, I normally see 10s.

 

[ZSHO]

I would check the wastegate hoses,(TC) wastegate solenoid valve stuck and check intake piping to make sure the clamps are in there tight.  Ant codes set?
I was curious if you hear any howling noises? Z
Here is a good link to get an idea. 
http://www.aa1car.com/library/turbo_repair.htm

 

[StealBlueSHO]

Today its a whopping 2f in Chicago. Did a couple wot pulls on the 87 tune (stock map on 3 bar) from LMS and its maxing out between 7 and 8 PSI, I normally see 10s.

Do you normally see 10s with the 87 tune? Or with the 91/93 tune?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[derfdog15]

Today its a whopping 2f in Chicago. Did a couple wot pulls on the 87 tune (stock map on 3 bar) from LMS and its maxing out between 7 and 8 PSI, I normally see 10s.

Do you normally see 10s with the 87 tune? Or with the 91/93 tune?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seconded, lower octane tune will command less MAP pressure/tip pressure/torque so car will not be commanded for or need as high of boost.

Along with that, depending on conditions there is a chance that a torque modifier was in place as well. For instance, when logging recently, I had some slipping/spinning due to cold roads, etc. and saw a significant boost cut due to traction control enabling.

 

[ZSHO]

I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather.  Z

 

[polskifacet]

I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather.  Z

That's a fair statement. Very hard to resist on a open highway though. Nothing is broken, higher octane tune shows higher boost. My exhaust has always howled part throttle.

 

[ajpturbo]

I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather.  Z

That is absurd...waste of a car

I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it

The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing

 

[polskifacet]

seems to be 20 degrees over ambient so 5f IAT is 20 to 25 on iat2

 

[StealBlueSHO]

That is absurd...waste of a car

I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it

The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing

IIRC the 4+X tune on the 2010-2012 calls for 187kpa under WOT... and that's the most aggressive one... although timing is pretty up there around 23 degrees advanced....

In have run that one in under freezing temps without an issue... hammering on it.. no problems...

 

[ajpturbo]

seems to be 20 degrees over ambient so 5f IAT is 20 to 25 on iat2

Maybe before the car is heat soaked...if you are only getting 20-25 degree over amb then you have a good intercooler and dont suffer the problems everyone else does

 

[ajpturbo]

That is absurd...waste of a car

I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it

The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing

IIRC the 4+X tune on the 2010-2012 calls for 187kpa under WOT... and that's the most aggressive one... although timing is pretty up there around 23 degrees advanced....

In have run that one in under freezing temps without an issue... hammering on it.. no problems...

Timing is pretty up there as you say because at 185 kpa load is lower and the spark tables follow load so lower load will yield more spark...and that spark was also your car and we know your car loved the spark

Take a look at an explorer sport under the same conditions and i bet you wont see 23 degrees....for some reason they dont tolerate the spark

 

[StealBlueSHO]

That is absurd...waste of a car

I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it

The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing

IIRC the 4+X tune on the 2010-2012 calls for 187kpa under WOT... and that's the most aggressive one... although timing is pretty up there around 23 degrees advanced....

In have run that one in under freezing temps without an issue... hammering on it.. no problems...

Timing is pretty up there as you say because at 185 kpa load is lower and the spark tables follow load so lower load will yield more spark...and that spark was also your car and we know your car loved the spark

Take a look at an explorer sport under the same conditions and i bet you wont see 23 degrees....for some reason they dont tolerate the spark

Makes sense, when boost is lower the timing is higher in the logs I see... I just assumed that was traditional tuning boost vs spark... raise boost where you want it and slowly add timing into it until you start picking up knock then back it off a bit...and generally it's a give and take.. more boost or more spark... not cranking hard on both... at least as I understand it..

The only logs of guys running more than 21 degrees of spark without knock are mixing E at 20% or higher...

Although FoMoCo had some interesting logs running really high E mixes..

But I digress... the OP shouldn't be seeing hesitation issues unless something outside the range of normal is not correct.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ZSHO]

I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather.  Z

That is absurd...waste of a car

I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it

The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing

What's absurd about wanting to take care of your car in single digit temps??.(Each his own). Z

 

[polskifacet]

manifold charge temp 50f

 

[ajpturbo]

I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather.  Z

That is absurd...waste of a car

I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it

The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing

What's absurd about wanting to take care of your car in single digit temps??.Z

What makes you think you are taking care of it any better by not going wot when cold?....in fact it may be less stressful on the car going wot when colder.....its a machine not a man, it doesnt feel cold like you do

Thermal loads are much lower when cold..i see many more stress induced failures when hot not cold...your car loves the cold dont deprive it Z

 

[MiWiAu]

Take a look at an explorer sport under the same conditions and i bet you wont see 23 degrees....for some reason they dont tolerate the spark

True story. Even at lower boost levels, I don't think I've seen anything much over 10 degrees advance or so at WOT.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[polskifacet]

I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather.  Z

That is absurd...waste of a car

I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it

The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing

What would you say the cause is if it's not running out of fuel?