MIL Flashing, P0087, P0301, rough idle, hesitation, fuel smell.

[Deebeaux]

Yes, AOS = Air Oil Separator.

There's no mess near the PCV valve or the AOS, but using my homemade mechanic's stethoscope (vacuum hose and an ear) there is definitely a huge hiss coming from around the quick disconnect connector on the PCV valve, and where the PCV valve meets the AOS. That might just be an o-ring, but the valve is cheap enough to just change.

It's silly it's this stupid quick disconnect with some sort of PTFE or similar seal in it and not just a molded rubber hose with a couple clamps. That'd last decades without leaking.

What should I be looking for in terms of EVAP purge cycle? I haven't checked that valve for failure yet, but I understand it's prone to it. I'll do a check while I'm out there picking up from the last couple day's adventures.

AOS being Air Oil Separator?  Is there any grime or oily mess built up in the area around the PCV valve? 

You may have to clear the codes and try again next time you restart (after the PCV valve replacement).  Then check the EVAP purge cycle and fuel trims.

 

[SHOdded]

Basically matching up the purge cycle to fuel trims.  Another source/culprit to check if you notice the car running rich.  Not sure how the data shows up for these DI engines, but on my NA Edge, there is a PID called EVAP_PCT that shows you the EVAP cycling in and out.

http://obdcon.sourceforge.net/2010/06/interpreting-generic-obd-ii-scan-data/

EVAP PURGE = EVAP_PCT: This parameter is displayed as a percentage and is normalized for all types of purge systems. EVAP Purge Control commanded OFF will display 0% and EVAP Purge Control commanded fully open will display 100%. This is an important parameter to check if the vehicle is having fuel trim problems. Fuel trim readings may be abnormal, due to normal purge operation. To eliminate EVAP Purge as a potential contributor to a fuel trim problem, block the purge valve inlet to the intake manifold, then recheck fuel trim.

I am just starting to dig into this myself, so there is a learning curve ahead of me

 

[Gjkrisa]

Basically matching up the purge cycle to fuel trims.  Another source/culprit to check if you notice the car running rich.  Not sure how the data shows up for these DI engines, but on my NA Edge, there is a PID called EVAP_PCT that shows you the EVAP cycling in and out.

http://obdcon.sourceforge.net/2010/06/interpreting-generic-obd-ii-scan-data/
EVAP PURGE = EVAP_PCT: This parameter is displayed as a percentage and is normalized for all types of purge systems. EVAP Purge Control commanded OFF will display 0% and EVAP Purge Control commanded fully open will display 100%. This is an important parameter to check if the vehicle is having fuel trim problems. Fuel trim readings may be abnormal, due to normal purge operation. To eliminate EVAP Purge as a potential contributor to a fuel trim problem, block the purge valve inlet to the intake manifold, then recheck fuel trim.

I am just starting to dig into this myself, so there is a learning curve ahead of me

Wow that's some good well written material!

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[SHOdded]

That link has some more great info

 

[Gjkrisa]

Yea I was commenting in the link actually

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[Deebeaux]

Excellent link! Once the vacuum leak on the PCV is solved, I'll continue diagnostics. The parts should arrive tomorrow morning and I'll pick them up at lunch. I'm hoping my remaining issue is solved with that or something with EVAP. I don't know if I'm in the mood to pull the intake manifold again.

After doing some research it appears many respectable folks recommend fuel system treatment (BG44K, Techron Concentrate, etc...) at regular intervals to ensure fuel system/injector health. I've searched and read a few posts, but would like to hear folks' comments on that.

Basically matching up the purge cycle to fuel trims.  Another source/culprit to check if you notice the car running rich.  Not sure how the data shows up for these DI engines, but on my NA Edge, there is a PID called EVAP_PCT that shows you the EVAP cycling in and out.

http://obdcon.sourceforge.net/2010/06/interpreting-generic-obd-ii-scan-data/

EVAP PURGE = EVAP_PCT: This parameter is displayed as a percentage and is normalized for all types of purge systems. EVAP Purge Control commanded OFF will display 0% and EVAP Purge Control commanded fully open will display 100%. This is an important parameter to check if the vehicle is having fuel trim problems. Fuel trim readings may be abnormal, due to normal purge operation. To eliminate EVAP Purge as a potential contributor to a fuel trim problem, block the purge valve inlet to the intake manifold, then recheck fuel trim.

I am just starting to dig into this myself, so there is a learning curve ahead of me

 

[ZSHO]

I have tried many of those fuel system cleaners and certainly the BBK fuel cleaner made especially for Direct injection to be a great product...also the Chevron techron cleaner is a very good fuel system cleaner which is half the price.  Z

 

[Gjkrisa]

Seafoam is also another great one proof from Chris fix on YouTube
My plane is every 3000 miles intake cleaner and gas additive.

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[Deebeaux]

I'm considering just making fuel system treatment part of my regular maintenance. Maybe every oil change or similar interval. Catch can is definitely coming next and likely meth injection, just enough to keep the intake valves clean. My end game for this car was simply downpipes, a 93 tune, and now the catch can and meth injection. It's my daily and road trip car, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun!

I have tried many of those fuel system cleaners and certainly the BBK cleaner made especially for Direct injection to be a great product...also the Chevron techron is another quality cleaner to good also and much cheaper.  Z

I've used Seafoam in the past and I'm okay with the product they make, but in these cars I'd only even consider an in-tank fuel system treatment. Oil treatments aren't typically recommended/healthy for turbochargers, and induction services are also linked to turbocharger deaths on more than one GTDI engine. Not sure which Seafoam treatment method you're referring to. Glad to see another Chris Fix fan. He's got some excellent videos.

Seafoam is also another great one proof from Chris fix on YouTube

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[Gjkrisa]

Agreed wasn't thinking about oil additive definitely wouldn't want one Ford says there way of helping the back of the vales is using a inductive cleaner.
Because of the fuel additive videos I started watching chris fix the way he went about it was very good. I'm excited for his drift car videos

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[Deebeaux]

Unless something has changed, Ford does not approve of induction services on the Ecoboost. At least according to FordTechMakuloco on this video via his YouTube channel. You can skip to 3:21 to where he talks about induction services.

Agreed wasn't thinking about oil additive definitely wouldn't want one Ford says there way of helping the back of the vales is using a inductive cleaner.
Because of the fuel additive videos I started watching chris fix the way he went about it was very good. I'm excited for his drift car videos

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[SHOdded]

and FordTechMauloco has also recommended used of a good catch can to cut down on the PCV emissions that end up coking the back of the intake valves.  Methanol injection (probably nitrous also) is so far the best way to get a continous cleaning. 

Induction services should be done if at all on a regular basis as a preventive rather than a curative method.  Borescoping before induction service should be used as a verification step.

 

[Deebeaux]

I'm definitely ordering a catch can in the very near future. Looking at the UPR one. I used to have an account with them years ago, but unsure if I can still get any discounts. Otherwise open to suggestions of recommended catch cans.

Water/Meth seems like an excellent way to keep it clean all the time and not have to worry about needing future induction cleanings. In the VW TDI world, a lot of us run meth injection to keep the build up from clogging the intake nearly 100% with soot. As both are TDI platforms, I can imagine it works just as well in the Ecoboost world. There's also some performance benefits to be had along with continually performing preventative maintenance on your engine. Boosting becomes maintenance! I like this idea.

and FordTechMauloco has also recommended used of a good catch can to cut down on the PCV emissions that end up coking the back of the intake valves.  Methanol injection (probably nitrous also) is so far the best way to get a continous cleaning. 

Induction services should be done if at all on a regular basis as a preventive rather than a curative method.  Borescoping before induction service should be used as a verification step.

 

[Gjkrisa]

Unless something has changed, Ford does not approve of induction services on the Ecoboost. At least according to FordTechMakuloco on this video via his YouTube channel. You can skip to 3:21 to where he talks about induction services.

Agreed wasn't thinking about oil additive definitely wouldn't want one Ford says there way of helping the back of the vales is using a inductive cleaner.
Because of the fuel additive videos I started watching chris fix the way he went about it was very good. I'm excited for his drift car videos

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Odd I must of hears what I wanted to here I thought in that video he said for was recommending it on service but I'd be doing it before issues.

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[Deebeaux]

I replaced PCV valve and the vent tube connecting valve to the intake manifold with brand new Ford OEM parts. The real kicker is I still hear a hiss when listening with a vacuum hose "stethoscope". It's definitely much less of a leak than before, but it still sounds like a leak to me. My UPR catch can setup is on the way which would eliminate this stupid hose, but I'm not sure why the new OEM hose still appears to leak at vacuum. I suspect it also leaks under boost as well, but it'd take Evil Knievel to test that theory. I'd like to get this issue 100% sorted before changing anything (tune, catch can, meth, etc...)

I took a video of the fuel trims and me rambling on a bit, you can see that here. I apologize for the vertical video, the way I've got the Torque phone propped up fries my brain and I feel like I have to hold my iPhone that way too.

The LTFT1 seems stuck at 10.9% throughout my last few videos. Unsure why. They were both 10.9%, but LTFT2 is now 0.0%. The I let the car idle a bit, but didn't drive it, I still have air in my cooling system that I need to sort out, and I was home on my lunch break. Unsure if it's "safe" to drive. Is there a proper way to reset this besides clearing the codes at idle?

Any chance this could be bad gas as well? Maybe I got a bad tank and it put a unhappy injector into full failure and is causing this mess? I'm hesitant to assume that since my LTFT is only odd on a single bank. Any insight as to what to try next would be greatly appreciated.

 

[SHOdded]

The fuel trims are definitely not anywhere near where they should be on Bank 1 or Bank 2.  If you add the LT and ST readings for a Bank, both banks are running lean, mostly the same amount.  These readings are taken after the car has warmed up?  Any idea what the O2 readings looked like during this time?  You had installed new O2s (all 4), correct?  By any chance, were they not Motorcraft?

Not sure what the HPFP should put out when you rev in P/N, the highside pressure hardly changed when you revved to 1500 then 2500 rpm.

Bad gas should affect both banks the same.  You may want to get Forscan Lite to make sure there are no codes that Torque Pro has missed, erase them from there.

 

[Deebeaux]

The car was not to full operating temperature yet. I had just idled it a bit after installing the new hosts. Should I fire it up again when I get home and get her up to normal operating temp? I need to mix some 50/50 and top off the coolant a bit before I do that.

Can't believe I missed adding the LT and ST on the banks to find out it was pretty even. I always over look the obvious stuff.

I have not replaced any O2 sensors yet. Do I need to? If I do, they will be all OEM.

I'll download Forscan Lite and give that a try when I get home.

The fuel trims are definitely not anywhere near where they should be on Bank 1 or Bank 2.  If you add the LT and ST readings for a Bank, both banks are running lean, mostly the same amount.  These readings are taken after the car has warmed up?  Any idea what the O2 readings looked like during this time?  You had installed new O2s (all 4), correct?  By any chance, were they not Motorcraft?

Not sure what the HPFP should put out when you rev in P/N, the highside pressure hardly changed when you revved to 1500 then 2500 rpm.

Bad gas should affect both banks the same.  You may want to get Forscan Lite to make sure there are no codes that Torque Pro has missed, erase them from there.

 

[SHOdded]

Fuel trims are expected to be higher when first started, as the engine will use the last known LTs to run until the STs kick in.  Really shouldn't take very long at all, as the EB engines go into closed loop VERY quickly.  I start getting STs within 30 seconds (or less) on my NA Edge, so I expect the EB to be same or better.

Definitely top off the coolant first before running the engine next time.  You won't know if there are air bubbles that need taking care of until the car is at operating temp though.  If the weather is warm in LA, shouldn't take long to get up to temp.  Then you can "burp" the system if need be.  Monitor coolant temps to see how the car is doing while it is warming up, the stock thermostat is 180F, assuming that's what's in there now.  Should stay at/under 200F when warmed up.

Don't know if the O2s need replacing.  I am thinking maybe not given the vintage of the vehicle, but you have to be ready for that.  Monitor the O2 voltages and the lambda values after starting the car next time.  The front O2s are wideband, the rear O2s are narrowband, so they have different ranges.  If the widebands drop out completely, you know you have a problem there (sensor or wiring).  Prefer the rear narrowband O2s to be in the 0.45-0.6 range, then you know the cats are likely A-OK.

 

[ajpturbo]

I wouldnt worry so much with fuel pressure...at idle and cruise its fairly low...i always see about 250....the pressure follows a table based on demanded fuel flow

When desired fuel flow rises then it follows a tables that has pressure schedule

10% ltft is really high...i would look for exhaust leaks before the primary o2 sensor

The nice thing about speed density and map based fuel tuning is even if you have a boost leak or a leak at the intake manifold you shouldnt see it in fuel trims because the air flow is metered at the manifold so intake leaks dont hurt you as much

 

[Deebeaux]

First I'll clear the codes with Forscan Lite. Then I'll get the coolant topped off before firing it up. Even with it a little low it would cycle between about 188-203 with the ambient in the upper 90s when I got her back together. That's just idling in the driveway though and I did take up and down the street.

I'll set up a new Torque screen showing FTs and O2 data and film the startup when I do fire it up. I guess I can also run a data log for easier analysis too. I can't see the O2s being faulty because of age or mileage, but if they were damaged due to an injector spraying like mad, I can see that.

Fuel trims are expected to be higher when first started, as the engine will use the last known LTs to run until the STs kick in.  Really shouldn't take very long at all, as the EB engines go into closed loop VERY quickly.  I start getting STs within 30 seconds (or less) on my NA Edge, so I expect the EB to be same or better.

Definitely top off the coolant first before running the engine next time.  You won't know if there are air bubbles that need taking care of until the car is at operating temp though.  If the weather is warm in LA, shouldn't take long to get up to temp.  Then you can "burp" the system if need be.  Monitor coolant temps to see how the car is doing while it is warming up, the stock thermostat is 180F, assuming that's what's in there now.  Should stay at/under 200F when warmed up.

Don't know if the O2s need replacing.  I am thinking maybe not given the vintage of the vehicle, but you have to be ready for that.  Monitor the O2 voltages and the lambda values after starting the car next time.  The front O2s are wideband, the rear O2s are narrowband, so they have different ranges.  If the widebands drop out completely, you know you have a problem there (sensor or wiring).  Prefer the rear narrowband O2s to be in the 0.45-0.6 range, then you know the cats are likely A-OK.

I'll look for exhaust leaks, but the car is bone stock and AFAIK the exhaust has never been off.

A set of cat-less down-pipes wouldn't hurt my feelings if my current cats are damaged, but we'll test and see.

I'm a huge fan of Speed Density tuning. I just switched my Toyota 86 w/turbo kit over to Speed Density from the stock system as tuning otherwise is more difficult. That engine has DI and PI, causing it to not be as plagued with some of the negative effects of pure DI. This does make tuning a little more interesting, a 4 cylinder with 8 fuel injectors, but who doesn't like a challenge? Those GT-R guys are upgrading to 12 injectors, so there's that!

I wouldnt worry so much with fuel pressure...at idle and cruise its fairly low...i always see about 250....the pressure follows a table based on demanded fuel flow

When desired fuel flow rises then it follows a tables that has pressure schedule

10% ltft is really high...i would look for exhaust leaks before the primary o2 sensor

The nice thing about speed density and map based fuel tuning is even if you have a boost leak or a leak at the intake manifold you shouldnt see it in fuel trims because the air flow is metered at the manifold so intake leaks dont hurt you as much

Thanks to both of you for the info. Hopefully I can get some more data tonight.