AJPTurbo boost regulator mod with EcoPowerParts charge pipes
- Thread starter derfdog15
- Start date
AJP turbo said:
Hmm... maybe you can convince me that I'm wasting my time with this preload idea.
On my Explorer, the 15.95 and both 17.4 spring combos were causing the gate to hang open on shifts when we were at 14PSI target boost, and the 18.85 spring combo didn't actuate at all on the 1-2 shift until we bumped the target boost to 14.5PSI.
Even then, my fuel pressure at the 1-2 shift was dropping to ~1100 psi vs ~1900 psi at the 2-3 shift. Granted, this was with an ambient temp of 8.6*F LOL, so pressures will probably improve with warmer temps.
It seems to be shaping up that my spring settings are somewhat of an outlier, but here's my general question: wouldn't it be more ideal to tune to max boost and spark allowed by KR and fuel pressure, then dial in the boost regulator (for further improvements with fuel, MAP, and KR) with spring preload, rather than try to tune the regulator with desired boost? It seems like the latter may force a decision between too much boost required to actuate the regulator (and lower fuel/higher KR) or running lower boost to not overpower the gate springs and thus compromising optimal power output.
At least in my particular situation, I'm thinking my optimized spring combo is somewhere between my 17.4 and 18.85 springs, and going to the lower spring combo with a slight increase in preload might help improve the fuel pressure drop on my 1-2 shift.
I guess it depends on one's definition of "ideal" solution. One way (preload or MBC) is relatively high effort for the end user compared to tweaking the target boost, and it would also have the potential to remove another variable from the control of the tuner, which I could see being a potential issue as well by increasing the possibility of user error.
I guess I will proceed on this preload thing with caution, unless you tell me it's a dumb idea.
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Here is a pic of my boost reference line/vacuum reference line for anyone that needs it. This is from when I had just the boost gauge hooked up. Since install of the wastegate and bov I ran a 3/8" fuel line to a cross near the firewall a d have grabbed reference for all items (bov, wastegate, and boost gauge) from the cross.
Thanks, derf.
I bit the bullet and decided to go the more expensive route, with the hopes of added convenience: http://www.stage3motorsports.com//TS-0720-1005-2013-2016-F150-3-5L-EcoBoost-Turbosmart-MAP-Sensor-Boost-Reference-Adapter.html
I contacted Turbosmart directly, and they basically said it would probably work, and that I shouldn't have any issues with still fitting the engine cover. Guess we'll see soon. LOL
I bit the bullet and decided to go the more expensive route, with the hopes of added convenience: http://www.stage3motorsports.com//TS-0720-1005-2013-2016-F150-3-5L-EcoBoost-Turbosmart-MAP-Sensor-Boost-Reference-Adapter.html
I contacted Turbosmart directly, and they basically said it would probably work, and that I shouldn't have any issues with still fitting the engine cover. Guess we'll see soon. LOL
MiWiAu said:
I assume that is being used for the OE 2 bar that we switch to a 3 bar? Since it only has one bolt hole shown. Do they include hardware as well?
I am going to try to run my wastegate from the TIP, as AJP did originally, as my boost is acting slightly odd currently, and the TIP pressure reference should be a few kPA higher. I will report back whether that makes it run better, etc.
I picked up 2 T's (1/4" pipe thread), some 1/4" to 1/4" nipples, and appropriate clamps, as well as a few pipe thread plugs. I am going to plug the port on my cross to the wastegate mod. Then use a T on the TIP reference. If the car runs better/AJP likes it more that way, I will turn the cross into a T permanently.
There is also a port on the bottom of the MAP sensor mount on the EPP charge piping, that I believe is 1/8" NPT. That may be another option in the future as well.
derfdog15 said:
Yes, this adapter installs between the MAP sensor and the IM where we swap out our 2-bar sensor. It appears to be a fairly complete kit.
Here are the install instructions, which also has a list of the included hardware. https://system.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=426153&c=830533&h=f333ecb0c63bad41fc6d&_xt=.pdf&ck=SOvAzYxHAmDnD1Ri&vid=RA6Nw4xHAmbnD0l2&cktime=149412&promocode=&promocodeaction=overwrite&addrcountry=AU&gc=clear&whence=
I'm currently using the charge pipe reference from Brad's how-to, but I'm thinking the lower boost reference from the IM might allow the boost regulator to not hang open quite so long after shifts and allow me to move back down to lower spring pressure settings without dialing back my boost.
SHOdded said:
You know how I love my data, Manu.
An A > B MAP comparison will be the very first thing I do.
MiWiAu said:derfdog15 said:
Yes, this adapter installs between the MAP sensor and the IM where we swap out our 2-bar sensor. It appears to be a fairly complete kit.
Here are the install instructions, which also has a list of the included hardware. https://system.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=426153&c=830533&h=f333ecb0c63bad41fc6d&_xt=.pdf&ck=SOvAzYxHAmDnD1Ri&vid=RA6Nw4xHAmbnD0l2&cktime=149412&promocode=&promocodeaction=overwrite&addrcountry=AU&gc=clear&whence=
I'm currently using the charge pipe reference from Brad's how-to, but I'm thinking the lower boost reference from the IM might allow the boost regulator to not hang open quite so long after shifts and allow me to move back down to lower spring pressure settings without dialing back my boost.
SHOdded said:
You know how I love my data, Manu.
An A > B MAP comparison will be the very first thing I do.
That certainly does look complete. Upon further talking to Brad, I am going to try and use the reference port on the EPP charge pipe MAP sensor bung (essentially the same as your kit, except its already welded on my pipes, and only one port; and on the opposite MAP sensor). I will report back with my findings as well.
Vacuum reference location update:
I was able to use the same vacuum hose piece that I used before, thought it is just barely too short (1/4") or less, so if this is going to be the permanent location I will cut a piece of the new hose I bought today. Otherwise I will save that. If this is not going to be the location then I will use the new hose to get access to the port for the TIP. Based on where the TIP reference is, it still may see a bit higher pressure than this one, since it is pre-intercooler, and this location is post intercooler on the MAP near the throttlebody. However, this is also the MAP sensor that is directly across from the wastegate.
I just sent logs to Brad to see what it looks like.
I will update with pics once my phone decides to work again
1st through 4th pic are of the routing to under the map sensor. You can see the port in the third picture, as well as clearance with hose installed and sensor installed in the 4th. the 5th picture is the TIP location that can also be used/may still be used. You can see the hose coming off of the charge pipe, with the chrome clamp holding it on. That is where the vacuum line may be routed to if this location does not suffice.
You can see in the pics that there is a bit of a sharp bend for the hose that I used, which is why I said it was a bit too short, however I did not want to cut up new hose for the sake of testing, if I was going to ultimately move to a different location (TIP reference).
I was able to use the same vacuum hose piece that I used before, thought it is just barely too short (1/4") or less, so if this is going to be the permanent location I will cut a piece of the new hose I bought today. Otherwise I will save that. If this is not going to be the location then I will use the new hose to get access to the port for the TIP. Based on where the TIP reference is, it still may see a bit higher pressure than this one, since it is pre-intercooler, and this location is post intercooler on the MAP near the throttlebody. However, this is also the MAP sensor that is directly across from the wastegate.
I just sent logs to Brad to see what it looks like.
1st through 4th pic are of the routing to under the map sensor. You can see the port in the third picture, as well as clearance with hose installed and sensor installed in the 4th. the 5th picture is the TIP location that can also be used/may still be used. You can see the hose coming off of the charge pipe, with the chrome clamp holding it on. That is where the vacuum line may be routed to if this location does not suffice.
You can see in the pics that there is a bit of a sharp bend for the hose that I used, which is why I said it was a bit too short, however I did not want to cut up new hose for the sake of testing, if I was going to ultimately move to a different location (TIP reference).
f8tlSHO said:
Are you familiar enough with data logging and reading your own logs? There are several areas you need to monitor to tune for it.. map, tip, wgdc, rail pressure, and more.
And you need to monitor in real time...on a laptop...after each adjustment...or you can
mess stuff up...
If you are not confident in your ability to adjust the mbc based on what you are reading in the logs then don't do it. You are asking for trouble and most likely give Brad headaches...
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Honestly, listen to Brad, he will not steer you wrong. He is really good at what he does, let him let you know which spring is giving you the best results on the logs. I was looking for something very specific with the MBC setup... the tune he had me on before the mbc mod rocked all the other tunes I had.
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StealBlueSho said:
They for sure have been awesome. I think for right now he is still needing to confirm my gate works. My car is pretty much doing the opposite of MiWiAu 's Xsport. Rather than having to spring way up and drop boost, I have not been cracking the gate on the first two spring combos(17.4 psi, 15.95) I may have cracked it a bit on the 15.95 not sure, but I didn't seem to hear it on those two. Definitely heard it on 14.50 so hopefully Brad knows what to do from here (I am sure he does)
StealBlueSho said:
+1,000,000. Don't worry, little camper! Brad will get you sorted.
Keep in mind, the industry standard for compression spring rate tolerance is +/-10%. Every single spring has the possibility of creating differences for each application, so there are bound to be nuances.Considering all the other variables for each vehicle setup, it just requires some time to get it dialed in. One thing I can't stress enough about working with Brad is that he gives you a truly custom tune, which takes a little bit of time, but it will be right for YOUR car in the end.
The mention of StealBlueSho's MBC and my idea for a preload adjuster was not intended to freak anyone out or call into question Brad's ability to dial this thing in or the efficacy of the mod with the included kit springs. I was just looking to take things to another insane (and likely unnecessary) level. LOL
derfdog15 said:
When the gate opens, you'll know it (unless you're running in winter slush, like I did once). With my initial 15.95 combo, it was open from the 1>2 shift all the way through 3rd.
My advice would be to let Brad take the lead and let him direct your changes. Part of my issue was I got a wild hair and went and ran a ton of spring combos and inundated him with data logs (surprised, right? LOL). Then I left for a week on a business trip and when I got back, I had us off on such a tangent that we never circled back to one of the combos that may ultimately work better than the one I have now. Brad went back through some of my older boost regulator logs and found one that actually looked pretty good with a lower spring combo (17.4), so we're going to circle back on it once I get my new boost reference adapter.
To recap, don't get worried. Take your time; it's a [fun] process! Brad rulez!
Here are my most recent logs. Rev18&19 Logs are on the 17.40 PSI combo. Rev20 and Rev20_MAPVacuumSource are on 15.95PSI. The latter of the two is with the boost reference on the charge pipe location, the 3 bar sensor right by the throttlebody (TIP sensor I believe?) that is shown in the pictures above. Rev20_ChargePipe3BarVacuum_14_50PSI is on the 14.50 PSI combo, as the name denotes. I am still not the best at looking at logs, but am trying to learn. Any comments anyone wants to make, feel free.
derf, quick question on your Tial setup. You have your boost reference running to the bottom side of the diaphragm, with the extra air ports plugged (with thread lock or sealer), correct? And on the spring side of the diaphragm, you have at least one of the cap ports vented to atmosphere?
MiWiAu said:
I have one air port on the bottom as my reference. The other two are capped (no sealent/thread lock - I talked to support for the company I bought it from, and they said with the manner of bolt, etc. none was needed, could this be an issue with how it is currently?).
Both top ports are open currently, as that is how the instructions stated to do it for a VTA wastegate.