AJPTurbo boost regulator mod with EcoPowerParts charge pipes

[f8tlSHO]

Point is, don't bank on wastegate spring combinations by the spring chart alone, there is a reason for them developing the chart..

During Brad and my testing I needed around a 16.5 - 17 or so spring rate which is not available via the spring combinations.. verified when I called TiAL.. so that's when I threw on a manual boost controller..

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I have a manual controller I am going to use also to dial it in.


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Are you familiar enough with data logging and reading your own logs? There are several areas you need to monitor to tune for it.. map, tip, wgdc, rail pressure, and more.

And you need to monitor in real time...on a laptop...after each adjustment...or you can
mess stuff up...

If you are not confident in your ability to adjust the mbc based on what you are reading in the logs then don't do it. You are asking for trouble and most likely give Brad headaches...




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My outlook on this...tell me if this makes any sense.

I did not buy the same gate everyone else has. The springs in it are setup for 7,13,and20psi... If I use the 13psi spring and the mbc to adjust the pressure up to about 16 psi. My tune is only setup for 14psi at the moment. So I am not sure how limiting the boost below where the spikes are now is going to cause a problem. Am I thinking right? Or does this not make sense?


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[MiWiAu]

I have one air port on the bottom as my reference. The other two are capped (no sealent/thread lock - I talked to support for the company I bought it from, and they said with the manner of bolt, etc. none was needed, could this be an issue with how it is currently?).

Both top ports are open currently, as that is how the instructions stated to do it for a VTA wastegate.

If any of those bottom ports are leaking, you could be bleeding off boost pressure that would otherwise help pressurize the diaphragm and compress the springs (to open the valve). There should also be copper crush washers on both sides of your boost reference banjo fitting. I would use some thread sealer or Loctite (my instructions say blue Loctite) on the plugs, just to make sure you don't have a little leak.

My outlook on this...tell me if this makes any sense.

I did not buy the same gate everyone else has. The springs in it are setup for 7,13,and20psi... If I use the 13psi spring and the mbc to adjust the pressure up to about 16 psi. My tune is only setup for 14psi at the moment. So I am not sure how limiting the boost below where the spikes are now is going to cause a problem. Am I thinking right? Or does this not make sense?

See Brad's (AJP Turbo) post #97 regarding MBC.

Can you get additional springs for your gate? I would imagine it would be tricky to dial that in with such a large change in pressure range between your current options. Does your wastegate have the ability to change spring preload (pre-compress the spring)? If so, perhaps you can get away with the 13 psi spring and just crank up the preload to hold it closed to a higher pressure.

Are you working with AJP? A tune is required to modify the throttle to keep it open. If your tune doesn't have that update, it won't work very well because the throttle will close to control MAP which will further increase TIP and cause extra bypass through the boost regulator.

 

[ajpturbo]

Point is, don't bank on wastegate spring combinations by the spring chart alone, there is a reason for them developing the chart..

During Brad and my testing I needed around a 16.5 - 17 or so spring rate which is not available via the spring combinations.. verified when I called TiAL.. so that's when I threw on a manual boost controller..

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

I have a manual controller I am going to use also to dial it in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you familiar enough with data logging and reading your own logs? There are several areas you need to monitor to tune for it.. map, tip, wgdc, rail pressure, and more.

And you need to monitor in real time...on a laptop...after each adjustment...or you can
mess stuff up...

If you are not confident in your ability to adjust the mbc based on what you are reading in the logs then don't do it. You are asking for trouble and most likely give Brad headaches...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My outlook on this...tell me if this makes any sense.

I did not buy the same gate everyone else has. The springs in it are setup for 7,13,and20psi... If I use the 13psi spring and the mbc to adjust the pressure up to about 16 psi. My tune is only setup for 14psi at the moment. So I am not sure how limiting the boost below where the spikes are now is going to cause a problem. Am I thinking right? Or does this not make sense?


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That 20 psi spring will be too much and we won't reach the pressure needed to open the new gate mod.....And the 13 will want to always have the gate open and then wastegate duty cycle will/can skyrocket and you beat the **** out of the turbos for low boost....dumb.

Think of it like this if you use the MBC, you aren't raising anything to 16 psi you will be bleeding off some of the boost reference signal that would go the diaphragm on the new gate mod so essentially it's not seeing the 13 psi that would open the gate..You are just manipulating what the gate mod will see in order to not make it open

I don't like the MBC idea if your boost reference is coming from the charge pipes(TIP) because  that is air that goes through the factory boost solenoid and on to the turbo wastegate and then you are screwing with the tables for the factory boost control.

 

[derfdog15]

I have one air port on the bottom as my reference. The other two are capped (no sealent/thread lock - I talked to support for the company I bought it from, and they said with the manner of bolt, etc. none was needed, could this be an issue with how it is currently?).

Both top ports are open currently, as that is how the instructions stated to do it for a VTA wastegate.

If any of those bottom ports are leaking, you could be bleeding off boost pressure that would otherwise help pressurize the diaphragm and compress the springs (to open the valve). There should also be copper crush washers on both sides of your boost reference banjo fitting. I would use some thread sealer or Loctite (my instructions say blue Loctite) on the plugs, just to make sure you don't have a little leak.

Got it, when I first put it together I asked and was told that it shouldn't leak and no sealent/pipe tape was needed. But, I will get some blue loctite or similar and seal it up tomorrow as well. Better safe than sorry for $7 or so.

 

[MiWiAu]

Got it, when I first put it together I asked and was told that it shouldn't leak and no sealent/pipe tape was needed. But, I will get some blue loctite or similar and seal it up tomorrow as well. Better safe than sorry for $7 or so.

Fo shizzle! Blue Loctite or ptfe thread sealant certainly won't hurt, and will give you some added confidence that you have leak free connections. Just don't use red loctite. LOL

Also confirm both of those crush washers are in place whenever you reinstall. I did a TON of on, off, on, off, on, off with all my spring experimentation, and it would be easy to drop or lose one. For me, it was easier to remove the banjo bolt, since the vacuum line was on there so damn tight.

 

[f8tlSHO]

Point is, don't bank on wastegate spring combinations by the spring chart alone, there is a reason for them developing the chart..

During Brad and my testing I needed around a 16.5 - 17 or so spring rate which is not available via the spring combinations.. verified when I called TiAL.. so that's when I threw on a manual boost controller..

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

I have a manual controller I am going to use also to dial it in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you familiar enough with data logging and reading your own logs? There are several areas you need to monitor to tune for it.. map, tip, wgdc, rail pressure, and more.

And you need to monitor in real time...on a laptop...after each adjustment...or you can
mess stuff up...

If you are not confident in your ability to adjust the mbc based on what you are reading in the logs then don't do it. You are asking for trouble and most likely give Brad headaches...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My outlook on this...tell me if this makes any sense.

I did not buy the same gate everyone else has. The springs in it are setup for 7,13,and20psi... If I use the 13psi spring and the mbc to adjust the pressure up to about 16 psi. My tune is only setup for 14psi at the moment. So I am not sure how limiting the boost below where the spikes are now is going to cause a problem. Am I thinking right? Or does this not make sense?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That 20 psi spring will be too much and we won't reach the pressure needed to open the new gate mod.....And the 13 will want to always have the gate open and then wastegate duty cycle will/can skyrocket and you beat the s*** out of the turbos for low boost....dumb.

Think of it like this if you use the MBC, you aren't raising anything to 16 psi you will be bleeding off some of the boost reference signal that would go the diaphragm on the new gate mod so essentially it's not seeing the 13 psi that would open the gate..You are just manipulating what the gate mod will see in order to not make it open

I don't like the MBC idea if your boost reference is coming from the charge pipes(TIP) because  that is air that goes through the factory boost solenoid and on to the turbo wastegate and then you are screwing with the tables for the factory boost control.

Yeah I understand the 20 is too much and the 13 isn't enough. By using the mbc it blocks the signal I understand that. If this sounds like more work for you I will get different springs, I was just trying to get it done with parts I already have laying around.


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[f8tlSHO]

I have one air port on the bottom as my reference. The other two are capped (no sealent/thread lock - I talked to support for the company I bought it from, and they said with the manner of bolt, etc. none was needed, could this be an issue with how it is currently?).

Both top ports are open currently, as that is how the instructions stated to do it for a VTA wastegate.

If any of those bottom ports are leaking, you could be bleeding off boost pressure that would otherwise help pressurize the diaphragm and compress the springs (to open the valve). There should also be copper crush washers on both sides of your boost reference banjo fitting. I would use some thread sealer or Loctite (my instructions say blue Loctite) on the plugs, just to make sure you don't have a little leak.

My outlook on this...tell me if this makes any sense.

I did not buy the same gate everyone else has. The springs in it are setup for 7,13,and20psi... If I use the 13psi spring and the mbc to adjust the pressure up to about 16 psi. My tune is only setup for 14psi at the moment. So I am not sure how limiting the boost below where the spikes are now is going to cause a problem. Am I thinking right? Or does this not make sense?

See Brad's (AJP Turbo) post #97 regarding MBC.

Can you get additional springs for your gate? I would imagine it would be tricky to dial that in with such a large change in pressure range between your current options. Does your wastegate have the ability to change spring preload (pre-compress the spring)? If so, perhaps you can get away with the 13 psi spring and just crank up the preload to hold it closed to a higher pressure.

Are you working with AJP? A tune is required to modify the throttle to keep it open. If your tune doesn't have that update, it won't work very well because the throttle will close to control MAP which will further increase TIP and cause extra bypass through the boost regulator.

I don't think preload can be changed, I think the tial springs will fit in my gate. But I wanted to see if I could dial it in without buying new springs. Yes ajp is tuning my car.


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[ajpturbo]

F8tl you could be right....I think I had one where the more you spun the MBC the more it bled air to atmos.

But you are saying it's more like a restrictor and you change the orifice by spinning the adjuster.

I guess either would work but if we try the MBC I'd rather you hook it to intake manifold boost reference like a source you would use for a boost/vac gauge.

Just know that you will have to do some of the tweaking...I just like to be able to change a tune and you load and go

 

[8nutz8]

Here are my most recent logs. Rev18&19 Logs are on the 17.40 PSI combo. Rev20 and Rev20_MAPVacuumSource are on 15.95PSI. The latter of the two is with the boost reference on the charge pipe location, the 3 bar sensor right by the throttlebody (TIP sensor I believe?) that is shown in the pictures above. Rev20_ChargePipe3BarVacuum_14_50PSI is on the 14.50 PSI combo, as the name denotes. I am still not the best at looking at logs, but am trying to learn. Any comments anyone wants to make, feel free.

From what i can see in your logs it looks like the 17.4psi combo is opening around 220+ish kpa but only very briefly. . like your just barely tickling the springs open and then it shuts right away.
With the 15.95 combo it seems to be opening on around 215ish kpa and staying open until 5200+ rpm. . . Which does seem to be a little too long to me. Is this what you meant when you say it's hanging open?
This of course is my interpretation from what i exprienced after using the wastegate mod myself and of course every car will respond differently.I would imagine brad has given you more experienced and in depth interpretation of your logs so doubt this is news to you but that's what i'm seeing.
For me it's harder to hear the gate open over the engine's rpm's(or maybe i'm not listening as hard anymore after verifying the mod is working properly for me) but when i let off the throttle during the spike i can ALWAYS hear in snap shut . . might be something to try if you're second guessing the gate opening or not.
Here are my logs before and after the mod-rev 12 10.19. -notice the MAP jump to 220 or more on the 2-3 shift til the throttle brings it back down.
And after the mod-E20 rev4 12.4 -you can see when the gate opens around 205-210kpa and stay in that range til around 4800rpm or so. My car doesn't spike so bad on the 1-2 shift so it doesn't always open.

 

[f8tlSHO]

F8tl you could be right....I think I had one where the more you spun the MBC the more it bled air to atmos.

But you are saying it's more like a restrictor and you change the orifice by spinning the adjuster.

I guess either would work but if we try the MBC I'd rather you hook it to intake manifold boost reference like a source you would use for a boost/vac gauge.

Just know that you will have to do some of the tweaking...I just like to be able to change a tune and you load and go

The mbc I have is just a valve with a knob, + boost , -boost... the more you close it the later the gate opens. Same way it would work if it was controlling the boost. I understand what u are saying about changing tunes without adjusting anything. But if I change a tune I would have to change springs in gate regardless. Maybe I will try the mbc and see if it even works. Just curious. I was planning on using intake reference. Where else are you grabbing reference from?


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[StealBlueSHO]

F8tl you could be right....I think I had one where the more you spun the MBC the more it bled air to atmos.

But you are saying it's more like a restrictor and you change the orifice by spinning the adjuster.

I guess either would work but if we try the MBC I'd rather you hook it to intake manifold boost reference like a source you would use for a boost/vac gauge.

Just know that you will have to do some of the tweaking...I just like to be able to change a tune and you load and go

The mbc I have is just a valve with a knob, + boost , -boost... the more you close it the later the gate opens. Same way it would work if it was controlling the boost. I understand what u are saying about changing tunes without adjusting anything. But if I change a tune I would have to change springs in gate regardless. Maybe I will try the mbc and see if it even works. Just curious. I was planning on using intake reference. Where else are you grabbing reference from?


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I was grabbing from the signal line coming off the newly installed waste gate. This way, it did not effect the rest of the system.


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[derfdog15]

Here are my most recent logs. Rev18&19 Logs are on the 17.40 PSI combo. Rev20 and Rev20_MAPVacuumSource are on 15.95PSI. The latter of the two is with the boost reference on the charge pipe location, the 3 bar sensor right by the throttlebody (TIP sensor I believe?) that is shown in the pictures above. Rev20_ChargePipe3BarVacuum_14_50PSI is on the 14.50 PSI combo, as the name denotes. I am still not the best at looking at logs, but am trying to learn. Any comments anyone wants to make, feel free.

From what i can see in your logs it looks like the 17.4psi combo is opening around 220+ish kpa but only very briefly. . like your just barely tickling the springs open and then it shuts right away.
With the 15.95 combo it seems to be opening on around 215ish kpa and staying open until 5200+ rpm. . . Which does seem to be a little too long to me. Is this what you meant when you say it's hanging open?
This of course is my interpretation from what i exprienced after using the wastegate mod myself and of course every car will respond differently.I would imagine brad has given you more experienced and in depth interpretation of your logs so doubt this is news to you but that's what i'm seeing.
For me it's harder to hear the gate open over the engine's rpm's(or maybe i'm not listening as hard anymore after verifying the mod is working properly for me) but when i let off the throttle during the spike i can ALWAYS hear in snap shut . . might be something to try if you're second guessing the gate opening or not.
Here are my logs before and after the mod-rev 12 10.19. -notice the MAP jump to 220 or more on the 2-3 shift til the throttle brings it back down.
And after the mod-E20 rev4 12.4 -you can see when the gate opens around 205-210kpa and stay in that range til around 4800rpm or so. My car doesn't spike so bad on the 1-2 shift so it doesn't always open.

The main issue seemed to be that my MAP was greater than my desired TIP. On the current combo (14.50 PSI) that seems to be fixed. Brad is sending a revision with a little different fuel, and possibly another .5psi of boost commanded as well as a bit of increased TIP demand, to increase torque (you can see in the last log that the car met the torque demanded and just sort of stopped pushing after that).

He definitely knows what he is doing, so I just let him take the helm and do what he asks of me.

 

[f8tlSHO]

I was looking for a boost reference line directly off the intake ( not intake piping) didn't see anything I could use....

I am putting the wastegate on, was wondering if I could just weld a fitting right on the tube attached to the wastegate. See picture, where the black dot is. Just wondering if this would be good or bad being so close to the wastegate

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[MiWiAu]

I don't know for sure, but it seems like that might be too close to the dump valve. Also looking at my TIP pressure, it varies much more (relative to MAP), so it may be a less stable reference. You could try it, and if it doesn't work, you could always cap it and pull from somewhere else.


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[ZSHO]

I used a simular 3/8" ID Hose, 1/4" NPT Male for reference. IDK.  Z               
     

http://www.ebay.com/itm/190688070475?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

[f8tlSHO]

I used a 3/8" ID Hose, 1/4" NPT Male for reference.  Z 

(UPDATE)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190688070475?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The link or picture you posted must be broken. I can't see it


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[derfdog15]

My original vacuum location was the brake booster vacuum line, which comes right off of the intake and goes the master cylinder. it should have worked pretty well, BUT my gate was being ornery, so I moved it to right under the TIP sensor, since there is a 1/8 NPT threaded hole on the EcoPowerParts pipes in that location.

Brad used the TIP line itself, which is pre-intercooler, and also pictured earlier in the thread. It is a stock reference on the pipe from the rear turbo to the intercooler, which should help with the gate opening since it would have a bit more pressure than any post intercooler references.

IMO, I would ask him to be sure, but would start with that reference. You can run a T off of the stock line back to the charge pipe, and then out to your gate.

As for the gate, is that a knock-off F38? Looks to be, so you should be able to buy TiAL F38 springs for it (I assume its a 38mm), unfotunately you are looking at ~$30 per spring, so make sure you know the gate works first. Would test with the 13PSI setup you have first to make sure the gate opens and what not.

https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=16469&cat=1142&page=1

http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Brand/TiAL-Wastegate-Replacement-Parts-and-Accessories/TiAL-Wastegate-Springs-F38-F40-V44-F46-V60

Just realized from looking at wastegate springs , half of what you pay for with wastgates when you buy name brand is the assortment of springs.

 

[f8tlSHO]

My original vacuum location was the brake booster vacuum line, which comes right off of the intake and goes the master cylinder. it should have worked pretty well, BUT my gate was being ornery, so I moved it to right under the TIP sensor, since there is a 1/8 NPT threaded hole on the EcoPowerParts pipes in that location.

Brad used the TIP line itself, which is pre-intercooler, and also pictured earlier in the thread. It is a stock reference on the pipe from the rear turbo to the intercooler, which should help with the gate opening since it would have a bit more pressure than any post intercooler references.

IMO, I would ask him to be sure, but would start with that reference. You can run a T off of the stock line back to the charge pipe, and then out to your gate.

As for the gate, is that a knock-off F38? Looks to be, so you should be able to buy TiAL F38 springs for it (I assume its a 38mm), unfotunately you are looking at ~$30 per spring, so make sure you know the gate works first. Would test with the 13PSI setup you have first to make sure the gate opens and what not.

https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=16469&cat=1142&page=1

http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Brand/TiAL-Wastegate-Replacement-Parts-and-Accessories/TiAL-Wastegate-Springs-F38-F40-V44-F46-V60

Just realized from looking at wastegate springs , half of what you pay for with wastgates when you buy name brand is the assortment of springs.

it is a knock off, not sure of which one. i figured that not being near the heat of the exhaust it really wasn't that big of a deal to not go top of the line. brad and i have talked about reference line placement and decided it should be off the manifold not off the rear turbo tube like everyone else is using. because i plan on dialing the waste gate in with an mbc rather than buy new springs. gonna try this to see if i can get a consistent result first. if it doesn't work then i will regroup and figure out what springs i will need to buy.

i looked last night on the actual intake and didn't see a good spot to attach a reference line directly from the manifold. that is why i am asking about the reference off the tube i posted above. i can weld it myself so it wouldnt cost me a dime.

 

[SHOdded]

 

[f8tlSHO]

I used a simular 3/8" ID Hose, 1/4" NPT Male for reference. IDK.  Z               
     

http://www.ebay.com/itm/190688070475?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Tapatalk doesn't show the pic, computer does.. where did you have this connected?


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